October 6, 1985: The Interview that Drove Jens Söring to Flee the USA (Part 2)

Once the police talk about search warrants and probable cause, Soering senses the walls closing in.

Ricky Gardner: And if you could let us know something you know by midweek ... there will come a time when we'll going to have to say well today's the day, either Jens is going to do it or he isn't...

Soering: Right.

Gardner: And you know it comes a time and then we're gonna have to [explore] different avenues.

Welcome to the second and final part of the transcript of the interview with Jens Söring from October 6, 1985. For background and context, please see the introduction to Part 1. This second part is a bit more important than the first part, because it contains extensive back-and-forth about why Jens Söring refused to give evidence samples to the police. Söring delivers the excuses he had thought up beforehand — it might get me in trouble with the authorities, because I’m a foreigner. But the police aren’t convinced. Elizabeth was also a foreigner, they observed, but she voluntarily gave fingerprints, footprints, and a blood sample.

After pages of back and forth about this, Gardner and Reid finally wheel out the heavy artillery: If you don’t voluntarily give us these evidence samples, we will go to court, get a search warrant, and force you to give them to us. We don’t want to do this, but we will if we have to. We have enough probable cause. All we have to do is go to a judge. And time is running out: We need to eliminate people from the pool of potential suspects, and you’re still in that pool. We’re under pressure to solve this case, and eliminating potential suspects is one way we do this. The longer you delay, the more suspicious you look.

Elizabeth described the aftermath of this interview in her 1987 trial testimony:

Q Why did you and Jens leave in October of '85?

A Because Investigator Gardner and Investigator Reid had requested blood samples from Jens.

Q He was getting scared.

A Yes. And as I say, his attitude towards what happened changed as outside--as the investigation was progressing. And when he discovered that Investigator Gardner wasn't as stupid as he thought he was and that he couldn't just talk his way out of a situation as serious as this.

You can see that realization dawning on Söring in the excerpts below. I’ve put a few of the most important bits of this interview in bold. Enjoy!

Interview with Jens Söring, October 6, 1985, Part 2

Gardner: That was before you anyway, wasn't it? […]

Soering: Which was really a key thing because um up until that point, I don't think my parents were too pleased with our relationship.

Gardner: And they were after she, they met Elizabeth?

Soering: Yeah, I think they are more at ease now, when you come from, both of my parents are very very German middle class and I know, you I'm sure y'all know that German nobility doesn't exist since World War I but there's especially from (inaudible) there my mother's from there's a kind of (inaudible) pride itself on being like you know it (inaudible) city during the middle ages. They pride themselves on being very middle class you know that's that's something honorable you know and they do not think too highly of the idea that you know I was going out with somebody who was who was nobility.

Gardner: She wasn’t, in other words, they didn’t think she was good enough for you?

Soering: No. No. It's nothing like that it's just, it's very hard for Americans to understand this kind of class consciousness okay.

Gardner: Yeah.

Soering: Which, because you really don't have that to that degree you know if you make enough bucks you move up to the next class. In Europe, especially where, where my mother is from and also my father, because my father has a very strong tradition of being a bureaucratic family okay, his, his father was really really big in the postal ministry in Germany and all that sort of thing you know. They are very solid, solid, solid, solid middle class, who I think sensed a sort of instability when somebody like that comes into…

Reid: Yeah, I think, I think more of what you're saying is that they felt like that ah excluding you know as far as involving money or anything like this, they consider themselves middle class people where Elizabeth was from a and again noble type family. And there just couldn't be a comparison there or compatibility.

Soering: Yeah, because my mother was, well you see this all goes into their marriage okay […]

Reid: What type of work does your father do?

Soering: He's Vice Council [e.g., vice-consul].

Reid: Oh, he is.

Soering:  Yeah, he's Vice Council. Which he's now in charge of you know public relations in Detroit.

Gardner: Jens, I'm, I'm really really curious to see what your objection is to submitting to what we have asked for?

Soering:  Okay, well, that's really easy um I don't know whether you are aware of this but there have been some um problems between our countries recently okay and it also comes into the fact that the state department is cracking down on diplomats. I don't know if y'all you've noticed this but diplomats are required to have red, white and blue license plates now which was not the case before okay. Which means that doing anything like this would involve going to your state department, going to our state department going to our embassy, which could take an immense amount of time okay which I don't want to spend dealing with something like this and I don't think I have to which is why I am here because I think I can clear your minds and resolve your doubts about whether I'm involved in this. If it goes to your state department going to our state department going to our embassy, my father will find about it, my father will not be pleased. My father will make problems for me. I don't want to handle that sort of problem okay. And I'm not too sure about this but I think it may make some problems with him too okay. Because my father has, because we're see in the point service, if you um stay in one country, the government pays for your education there and he wants us to finish our high school education here okay. If possible with me because I have a scholarship and he's now doing the same thing for my brother, he's requested an extra tour of duty to stay in the states and he had to pull a lot of strings to get that okay. Stay in the states for much longer than usually diplomats stay, usually they don't stay in one location for six years so he's, he owes people favors and the United States is considered a good post. A lot of people want to come over here so he's not really too popular in hierarchy, and I don't know how it's going to affect his chance for promotion when he goes back to Bonn, when they find out that I'm involved in a murder investigation. That also ties in with the state department okay. Okay, now the state department has the right to actually deport me for as much as like a speeding ticket, they can do that okay and they keep files on this sort of thing, so that if you do enough things which the state department doesn't like, they will deport you okay. And that's where […] Of course, I mean I haven't done anything so far, you know, I don't even have, I don't even have a speeding ticket on my record now. Um, the thing […] is that eventually I think I may want to become an American citizen okay and the state department already has a file on me. They have a file on every diplomat, okay. And every diplomat's family member. I have to get those diplomatic license plates for my car, just because I'm my father's son and if they have a file on me and something like this is in the file okay I may have problems when they evaluate me when I can be a citizen okay. Now the United States has gotten a lot tougher as you know about letting foreigners in okay. I think what my father told me is that you know this is what I've heard like I say is that it’s even the case that they will only give you citizenship either for political reasons okay political asylum, or if you're necessary for national security okay, now I don't think I'm ever going to be necessary for national security, I mean, I will speak Chinese by the time I graduate, but um I don't think that qualifies me to be necessary for national security like I have to work like Albert Einstein (inaudible) for national security. So, it may be very difficult for me to get my citizenship here and I don't want to risk having something like this on my record any association with this, okay. If I want to become a citizen and I think that with all those things combined okay, it would be really not good for me to do this. 1 would really, really, really not want to do this, cause you never know you know a war may start in Europe okay. I may just want stay here okay. Elizabeth has a green card and then she can become a citizen, I may want to stay here, too. Whether with Elizabeth or somebody else, now with Elizabeth okay if I married her I could get a green card too. It would be easy, but what if I were to marry somebody else like […] okay. Excuse me just a second. With whom I have a date, which I don't want to be late for, where's my watch. (Inaudible) Who does not have a green card herself okay or somebody else okay like my old girlfriend I had in Mexico and I need to keep make sure that I am completely clean, I want to be as perfect as possible at the review board process okay. And I think I can you know I can tell you some things about myself which I think will make you feel better about not making me do this, okay. Are you interested in hearing those?

Reid: Sure, you know, anything as I told you earlier its a process of elimination. But as far as technically, as far as your blood or whatever you know, that more or less was evident that we're not you know we are not going out of here and call the embassy and everywhere else you know and say okay we got Jen's blood type because he's being investigated because of a murder you know. It's, it's just there again just like the questions we have to ask. It's just the fact that you know-

Soering: You see this is the thing um you know at this point you know I love Elizabeth a lot okay that may change. Things do change and I'm interested in getting her, first of all my main interest to tell you the truth is getting you guys off her back. Okay. Now you know you do your job, I'm not going to fault you for anything, um you do what you have to do. But I don't you know I don't want her to deal with pressures like that anymore.

Reid: Sure, we, we don't want anybody to take any to take any undue pressure, as soon as we can clear ah, whoever, you know we want to do it because to tell you the truth about it, it's a headache to us to keep having to wonder about people and and run after them.

Soering: Well, here's the story. I'm a Jefferson scholar, okay. Elizabeth told me that um you thought at some point this had something do with money so I brought all of my little things having do with my money okay, um. Here I get a check for this amount $4275 every semester, that's two a year, that's, you know, $9,550, is that right, $9550?

Reid: Is that two semesters?

Soering: Right. Right. Anyway I get that much money every semester which pays for tuition and everything else. I'll get that till I graduate cause I have to do something drastic like get investigated for a murder investigation to lose that.

Gardner: Who gives that to you?

Soering: Atlanta Alumni Association. okay. I got this when […] competition process to get it which I can tell you about if you want to hear it. (inaudible) This is my Merrill Lynch cash management account. The problem with this is that you can't tell how much money I have in here offhand. You have to add a couple of figures. In this cash management account, I have $14,000 in stock, okay, I have um somewhere here it says cash $830 um when you add all this together it comes out to $21,000. okay. $21,000, $22,000. This was even after I got my car. This is my file on my car. Okay. Scirroco, $10,000 which was delivered sometime this summer okay. I have the invoices here. Which you are welcome to look at. I didn't have this car this spring at all. lt was being built and it was already paid for. okay. I also have a grandmother who is wealthy, she has a house in Berlin and Switzerland um also I'm the only family member she likes okay. She doesn't like my parents, she likes me. I've gotten by now 6,000 marks in presents, money presents for the car and she sends me checks at irregular intervals but they do come. In her will I am going to get Gutenberg Bible from her along with other stuff. She really does not like my mother, unfortunately, I think to me this is really not very important but it may be important to you, that's why I'm telling it to you. So my mother thinks that my grandmother is going to try to give as much of her wealth to my little brother and me and I guess especially because I'm her favorite grandson. Cause my little brother has not […] I have no financial worries in other words in other words. I'm completely taken care of for everything until I graduate. I've got a nice account. I've got a $10,000 sports car and I have a grandmother who's going to give me money when she dies which will be soon. She's old and sick. They are going over, my parents are going over there too.

Reid: In other words, in a lump sum you're saying that you can't afford to get, you couldn't afford to start with to get involved in a murder?

Soering: There's no reason for me at all. You know. I, I have like I said you know I wouldn't have gotten a scholarship unless I was a really clean cut guy any way and there's too much at stake for me in the way of the scholarship, as you know, I don't want to lose that you know, I don't, I don't know what the story with that is but you know there's too much for me at stake to do something dumb. okay. At the time I only knew Elizabeth four months and um I think there's enough reason for you to check me out on this without having to go through this drudgery of dealing with officials, okay. And the state department and all this stuff.

Gardner: We are going to have to.

Soering:  Okay. That's, that's my concern cause you know I may want to become a citizen.

Gardner: Jens. Now what you've said has made a whole lot of sense and I understand 100%, We don't want to cause you any undue pain

Reid: No, we don't want to cause you any problems.

Gardner: Pressure, we don’t want to pressure you to do anything.

Reid: Not at all.

Gardner:  And you said you've loved Elizabeth very much. And I sympathize with that und I, I admire you and respect you for that but and here again I don't want to intimidate you, put undue pressure on you or anything, but we're working on a double homicide...

Soering: Sure.

Gardner: Which is probably the biggest thing, the biggest crime that this county has ever seen....

Soering: Uh-huh.

Gardner: Now. We need your help for elimination purposes, because you've been in the house...

Soering: Uh-huh.

Gardner : Ah, common sense will tell you . . . I mean you've got your I,Q. is probably twice mine, the information that you have received through Elizabeth is probably enough to know that we need your fingerprints, that we need your anatomical footprints and that we need your blood, okay, that's three things that we need. Now, here again, don't feel like that you're being intimidated, because I don't want to intimidate you. Because for you to do this , you have to be, you have do it freely and voluntarily.

Soering: Uh-huh.

Gardner: You, you, say do what ever you want to do to me.

Soering: Yeah.

Gardner: You know, just like Elizabeth did.

Soering: Sure.

Gardner:  But, counter everything that you've said, we are talking about going to the State Department, Immigration, Nationalization, Secret Service, F.B.I., Interpol.

Soering:  No. No. That doesn't enter, I don't think. No, not those people.

Gardner:  Who ever. Who ever. But see, no I know, but I'm just saying, suppose, now just suppose because as you well know we're working with the F.B.I., we're working with the Secret Service and we're also working with nationalization...people.

Soering:  Yeah.

Gardner:  Immigration Naturalization people cause they you know they have been doing some checking, too. Um, not only you, but other people okay. Now suppose, you, you say I'm not going to do this.

Soering:  Uh-huh.

Gardner:  Okay, I, you know, and you've all ready said that. Now a hypothetical situation I’m not going to do this. Tomorrow morning first thing I call make about four phone calls and say look. The people that I've all ready talked to. All right.

Soering:  Right.

Gardner:  And I say look, we've looking at Jens Soering down here, a double homicide in our county, which they all ready know about, this guy is avoiding us like the plague, which is the opinion that we've had up until today, okay. Now that's, that's the opinion.

Soering: Uh-huh.

Gardner: Um, um and this guy is not cooperating with us at all. We know that he's not a United States citizen. And we're really looking at this guy. Now what's going to happen then?

Soering: Well, that's the reason I came down here. okay. Because in fact I have been very willing to cooperate with you even from the first. […] I have no you know I have no problems talking to either one of you about whatever you want to talk about, that's why I'm down here. Now I was aware of the fact that sometime late in the spring, Elizabeth told me you wanted to talk to me. And the way I got that message is from you to her lawyer to her to me. Now, I don't know whether you understand this but, being German, I don’t like police, okay, okay, since my grandfather was hassled, my grandfather on my mother's side was hassled a lot, by the Nazi's. okay, so I'm not gonna come running to you, unless you come and find me and it's so incredibly easy to find me, I mean, Elizabeth has a boyfriend, what does he do, he goes to college, right? Call the university the student directory, they have to give you my name, they have to give anybody my name, and you know, you can get in touch with me within five minutes. One phone call to the university, you know, the main switchboard which will switch you to student directory and which will give you my number and then a phone call to me. It would have been as easy as that, so I figured if you actually did want to talk to me, you'll come to talk to me. And I'm not going to get involved with anything for the reasons I all ready discussed a little while ago with you unless I have to.

Reid:  Well, the reason you know this come along when it come down to the time, you know we had so many people to talk to...

Soering: Uh-huh .

Reid: We couldn't do it all in a month. Really.

Soering:   Yeah, sure .

Reid:  And then once summer come along, you know, of course, you and Elizabeth both ah....

Soering:    We were gone.

Reid:  You were gone and travelling here and travelling there and ah of course at the time we had a lot others we needed to talk to too so the ones that was most available at the time was the ones we went to first.

Gardner: But what we are saying is, you can...and I'm not calling you a liar and don't you know because I have no reason to doubt what you've told us here today. No reason at all. But what I’m saying is nothing, they say, a picture is worth a thousand words....

Soering: Uh-huh.

Gardner: Oh, okay, the same with physical evidence. Okay. Fingerprints, blood, anatomical footprints.

Reid: Well, I can tell you this  now, I don't know, and I'm being, I'm I'll  try to be  honest with you, I don't have any reason not to be. With anybody as far as that goes. Ah, as far as what we're asking for you know its, its a  matter of maybe thirty minutes of your time you know one day. Ah. And as far as you've told us...

Soering: Uh-huh.

Reid: You know, to me that's you know it sounds real good. But this is just a little something for our records […] this out here to some Joe Blow or the embassy, or whatever we have no reason to do that, I don't know how they would get a hold of even though they say, hey ah, let me see, I heard the other day that Jens ah give his blood sample to Bedford County Sheriff's Department, you know, what that just we just don't information we just don't throw out here. Ah. You know, its for our file. If somebody comes back and says or if, if the lieutenant comes back or the captain comes back or if the sheriff comes back have you done this ah you know sure Jens is cleared, he's been cleared, here's his record right here you know, no more problems. Ah, and that's it. You know as far as contacting the embassy in different situations, we have no reason to, I don't know how they would ever find out.

Soering: Uh-huh.

Gardner: The only people that would ever know anything about it and here again, I'm not stepping on that, but the only people that would know anything about it would be he and I and the people in this department. You and the lab people, but what I'm saying is you're worried about what you're saying is you're worried about the State Department or who ever, you know I don't even know anybody, I have never even talked to anybody in the State Department (inaudible)....

Reid: I don't see how unless it turned out you know that that you was involved...

Soering: I'm a German citizen, I must report official contact with the police if they are investigating I have to report that to the embassy.

Gardner: Have you all ready done that?

Soering: No, of course not.

Reid:  In other words, this conversation today you would have to go back and...

Soering: I'm not quite sure about that.

Reid:  What we are saying is, what we are saying is, the blood, the blood type that you give us or what little bit we're asking for Is really no more than what this conversation is right here, it's just that goes hand in hand with the process of elimination, just like we did with Elizabeth, just like we did with...

Gardner: […name redacted]

Reid: […name redacted]

Soering: Yeah, whoever. Right.

Reid: What's her brother’s name?

Gardner: But what we are saying is...if if you voluntarily submit to this and here again I don't want intimidate you okay...

Soering: Uh-huh.

Gardner: If you volunteered, voluntarily submit to this , why would you have to tell anybody anything unless we find out that you did it and you, you know if did it or not or had any part of it, but at what point, not let me ask you this before you go and ...at what point do you have to report to the Stale Department if you're being investigated?

Soering: I don't know, how that works technically, exactly. Okay. Um, my experience, my experience with having grown up in the foreign service tells me that this sort of thing is going to be reported.

Reid: No.

Soering […]

Reid: Yeah, okay. What I'm saying is if it is reported it is going to be by you...

Soering:  Right.

Reid: It's sure not going to be by us.

Soering: Um, if if it would have to be spread to the various people who are responsible for this sort of thing and I would prefer not to do that.

Gardner: By whom?

Soering: By whom?

Gardner: Who would it, who would it be spread by?

Soering: By me.

Gardner: Why?

Soering: Because it is what I have to do.

Gardner: So you are gonna go back and call tomorrow and tell ‘em that we, we talked to you today?

Soering: No, because I consider this informal.

Reid: We're not saying that you did it by no means, there again, we get, do you understand what I'm saying when I say that the process of elimination decides the fact...

Soering: Sure.

Reid:  …of a suspect. You know, if you've got a direct suspect you want to get, you go at it a different way rather than trying to eliminate somebody.

Soering:    Sure. I understand.

Reid:  Elimination process saves us time, saves the fact that of us bugging you to death, Elizabeth to death, anybody else, you know, we can eliminate um, you know we don't, you know especially you. With what you're tied up in as far as you know your background or what you’re over here for. By no means do we want to ruin your life. I mean I have no reason to, he, none of us do. You know, we don't want to do that.

Soering: Yeah.

Reid: All we want to do is find out who killed Nancy and Derek Haysom....

Soering: Sure.

Reid:  Ah. And as far as family or anybody that knew any of the family, the easiest, the quickest, the best way to eliminate people, to save us time from to keep bothering them, that's that's the route to go.

Gardner: What we're saying is we don't care if you’re an American citizen or German citizen or Mexican citizen or whatever, we don't care. We don't, we don't, we don't care about that.

Reid: Yeah.

Gardner:   What we care, what we do worry about is solving this case and we feel like you can help us by submitting your fingerprints and also looking at it from this way, at this point, we could go talk to the Commonwealth's Attorney with the evidence that we have right now.

Soering:   Uh-huh.

Gardner :  Okay, l'm gonna be point blank and it's on tape and if it ever went any further, then I would have to just sit and say I said that.

Soering :  Yeah.

Gardner :  Okay. But I know, I know you know what a search warrant is.

Soering:   Uh-huh.

Gardner:   […]

Soering:   Sure.

Gardner:   And if, if tit came to tat, then there would be problems, I'm sure. Because then we'd have to come to Charlottesville, get the search warrant. ahh...

Reid: That would be, now you talking about being on record in the courts in this type thing. And we get into a situation where we're forcing ourselves on somebody that we don't want to.

Gardner: Now, if we wanted to do that, I feel pretty strongly and here again I'm not threatening you, now I don't want, I'm just trying to tell you.

Soering: Yeah, sure.

Gardner: Ah, Jens. We are not trying to hang you.

Reid: What he's trying to say is, if you have enough circumstantial evidence, what I'm saying is it's a possibility that we could have enough circumstances, we could go that route. You know, in, in the very near future. That's a lot of trouble for us and a lot of trouble for you and I don't understand you know I don't see where you feel obligated just because we're talking with you because you knew the Haysom's. To me, I would not feel obligated to go tell the State Department or whoever about this situation.

Soering: Ah-huh, well you know I understand that. Sure. Um..

Reid: We're trying to make you feel...

Soering:  But first of all...sure.

Reid: We're trying to make you feel, we're trying to make you feel a little more at ease. You know, you said earlier you don't like police because of the Nazi and all this which.

Soering   Well, you know, that's that's... enters into it.

Reid: Well, sure, sure, I understand that . But we're, we're trying do this thing in a way...

Gardner : That won't get attention.

Reid: Yea, that won't upset somebody and will get us off their back and we try to do it a way, discreet way to where it will satisfy you, us, and then you can go about your business and not every Joe Blow, the courts and everybody else is going to know about it because of a search warrant.

Soering: The thing is, the thing is, I've talked to a lawyer about this and as I understand it, um, there isn't really probable cause anyway, so and I don't want to get into that discussion.

Gardner: Okay.

Soering: Okay, and I mean, like I said I mean I'm willing to go back this week and think about it some more if you want me to do that. The thing is that for me I feel very threatened by having to do this, because it could have potential effects on my family, on me and on my future and what I felt I could do by coming down this weekend and speaking with you people is give you an impression of who I am, what I know. And I'm willing to talk to you again if you want me to. Hm. So that you will feel confident and secure in the knowledge that you don't have to bug me anymore. On the other hand, I don’t have to deal with the headaches and the potential side effects of having to go the route of physical evidence, okay, collecting physical evidence. Now, if you aren't, you know, if you told me now that what I've told you don't satisfy you and that you know you feel strongly enough about me as a suspect that you must have physical evidence to eliminate me then obviously I am going to have to go back to Charlottesville and think about it … however…I was really, I was really hoping that that I would be able to ah spend this time with you and get.

Reid: As far as I'm concerned, your conversation has been very worth while, you know. I've enjoyed talking to you and everything you've said makes a lot of sense um. On my end of it I would really appreciate, I don't know what attorney you talked to, because really, you know that's another thing you know I can understand there again in your position, going to see an attorney. But, to me that's a mistake, you know, well just like Elizabeth for instance you know the first thing she did when we got into this, just because we talked to her was to get an attorney. We wasn't accusing Elizabeth. All we wanted to do is, there again, elimination type situation, you know what. You know as well as I do until an individual feels threatened enough to where we you know accuse them of something, you have no reason to see an attorney. It's just making things difficult for everybody, but that's, that's your privilege.

Soering: Well, I, I haven't, I haven't retained an attorney.

Reid: Yeah. Ah, ah, she did and that, that just made things linger on and made us wonder you know well why would she do that.

Gardner: More suspicious.

Soering:  Well, the reason why Elizabeth hired an attorney I can tell you right now is because of the way you treated her. Okay? Which, you know.

Gardner:  Have we treated you bad today?

Soering:  No. You've been quite reasonable.

Gardner:  This is nothing, this is the same thing, and you're taking my word about it...No. This is the same thing, I've got it on tape. We've got a 25, 30 page statement that particular day that I took from Elizabeth, okay.

Reid: Well, some people just feel a little more...

Gardner: And, and by her being a female, you know, she's probably a little bit more sensitive than you or I would be. okay.

Soering: Well…..  

Gardner: And, of course we asked her a whole lot more personal questions probably than we did you because we needed to know those about her...um...

Soering: Relationship with her parents and all that.

Gardner: Yeah. And Melissa and all that crap over in Germany. And which you know about. Okay.

Soering:  Yeah.

Gardner: But see we had to find out about that. But see what I'm saying is umm...when, when one doesn't cooperate with the authorities…

Soering:  Uh-huh.

Gardner: Then I have to suspect that something's not kosher..

Soering:  Uh-huh.

Gardner:  You know what I am saying. Because if, if you were sitting here and I was sitting right there, and and I said no I'm not going to give that to you and I give you the legitimate reasons for in which you just gave me which I think are very legitimate, there's no doubt in my mind that you know you have a whole lot to lose.

Soering: Uh-huh.

Gardner: I understand that. But still in the back of my mind, back here, or in the back of your mind, if you were sitting here, you would have some suspicion, some some suspicions. Now I've sat right here in this very chair and I talked to a whole lot of people and he has too. As a police officer, about minor things, nothing like murder. About somebody going out and burglarizing houses and stealing automobiles. Whatever. Okay. And they sit there in your where your sitting right now and they say, "Look, hey I was here, I was here, I can prove I was here, I was here, I was here, and I didn't do it." You'd think that Jesus Christ sitting in a chair there. Just as innocent as can be. And low and behold I proved a case against them. Okay. Not saying that you are lying, okay, but I’ve talked to a whole lot more people, whole lot of people that were ten times as convincing as you have been today and yet you know it turned around on them. But, but there again we're not suspecting you and and please believe us when we say that, we're not suspecting you. We are trying to eliminate you and I think there's a big, big gap between elimination and suspicion.

Soering: Sure. Yeah.

Gardner: Okay, but if we have to go the search warrant, search warrant route or the court order route, which you touched, I know you've been talking to an attorney because you brought out probable cause p.c. and I don't know if you've studied that or not?

Soering: Well, you brought up, you brought up the search warrant business….

Gardner: Yeah, well, but you, but we didn't, neither one of us said anything about probable cause...but you did.

Soering: No, but, obviously obviously if, if, if somebody calls me up and I feel a certain way about a situation and I want to know what my rights are and I call an attorney and say what are they allowed to do, do I have, you know, I want to talk to them but I don't want to do this other thing and he said well they can't make you....

Gardner: Right.

Soering:  And that's all I did (inaudible).

Gardner:  But they, but they can't make you but they can you.

Reid: If they've got the P.C.

Soering:  If they've got the P.C., yeah. P.C. is that what it is called?

Reid: Probable cause.

Soering: Yeah.

Gardner:  Okay. Probable cause being y’all rented a car and its got 429 miles on it, unexplained, pretty much unexplained.

Soering: We've discussed with you where we went.

Gardner: Okay, yeah but, but look at it...

Reid: What he's talking about is P.C. there.

Soering: Right, okay.

Gardner:  Try, try, try to understand where I'm coming from, okay....

Soering Sure.

Garder: We’ve got an envelope that was mailed in Washington, D.C. The Haysom's didn't mail it..you and Elizabeth was in Washington D.C.

Soering:  Uh-huh.

Gardner:  All right. Lack of cooperation, probable cause...

Soering:  (Inaudible)

Gardner:  It's, it's it's probable cause right there. But what l'm saying is it all adds up. okay. And here again, don't feel intimidated, but Inv. Reid's all ready told you what his personal opinion is....

Soering:  Uh huh.

Gardner:  I've enjoyed your conversation, it's been a learning experience for me talking to you and I'm glad we had the chance to talk. Cause like I said when I came in I've heard a whole lot about you, you know and and ah, some good things. I must say, I mean, just being a Jefferson scholar is tough, is a tough one, you know, I wished I could say that. But, um, that alone, what you've told us alone means a lot, but then on the left hand, it doesn’t mean that much, okay, now you, you know that evidently we've got some unidentified fingerprints.

Soering: I didn't know about them, no.

Gardner: Okay. Well, we want your fingerprints, you know. You see, you see what I'm saying...

Soering:Yeah.

Gardner: Without saying too much see, because we can't say too much.

Soering:  Uh-huh.

Reid: But you know a lot of times as I was giving my point a while ago that I really enjoyed the conversation, an intelligent one, and just like Gardner says, we've learned a whole lot from talking with you and by looking at the type and the intelligent individual you are, and being so convincing and knowing yourself that you wasn't involved in this thing over here that makes you wonder to the fact of you know, he knows this and and he's this intelligent, why not go on and just cooperate the full 100%, now I could see having some guy in here that some Joe Blow from back up here in the mountains somewhere that don't know what's going on and he is scared to death you know thinking that we're gonna try to hang something on him even though he knows he did it, but you're not that type of guy, you know that you didn't do it...

Soering: Yeah.

Reid: And you know, you you.

Soering: You know I didn’t do it.

Reid: Well, ah, I'm 99% sure at this point that you did not do it. I can't say a 100% because we haven't got the full complete evidence to send for the elimination. You know, we, you've got to be eliminated before I can sit here and say you know Jens you didn't do it. I'll put it to you this way you've got a good convincing story, there's no doubt in my mind. And good convincing story for the reasons that you don't want to give up your blood, and your footprints and all this. But you're too intelligent not to do that to me, because you know you didn't do it.

Soering: Sure, And I understand

Reid: Do you understand where I'm coming from.

Soering : Yeah, (inaudible). I'm not myself fully satisfied yet about how this sort of thing is going to affect me. Just giving this physical evidence. And like I said, like I said, you know I understand that you know what what you feel you must do but, I, I, ....

Reid: Is there anybody you can check with then to to verify what we're trying to tell you. Like I say, what, what you give us it's here with us, we have no reason to call the President, or the State Department or Pentagon or what ever...you know.

Soering: Yeah.

Gardner: I think, I, to simplify things.

Soering: Uh-huh.

Gardner: I've got, he's got a small or no small boy he's got a young boy and I got two young boys and sometimes you have to make it easy. But what I'm saying is, I think if you cooperated with us and this is on tape and your attorney if you retain one can hear this, but I think if you cooperate with us and submit to what we've asked for, it would be a whole lot less damaging, a whole lot less, a whole much less....

Soering: Yeah.

Gardner: Damaging than if we have to go through the search warrant or court order deal...

Soering:  Yeah .

Gardner : We've had this with one other suspect in this and I'm sure you know who we are talking about in this murder, but we did and ...,um you know how rumors are. And this particular individual was a suspect, first of all, as we the first day we went over there everybody was a suspect...

Soering: Right.

Gardner: Until proven different, different...eliminated, totally and what you've given us, the statement that you've given us pretty much in my opinion like he said eliminates you...

Soering: Uh-huh.

Gardner: But whose to say that you're being truthful? Not that I doubt you, but to clear our minds up 110%, which we've got to be on this deal before we can bring it to court then we have to have the physical evidence. Circumstantial evidence is fine...

Reid: This individual he's speaking of, I'm not going to call any names, but the rumors and you know different rumors got started on a person it has on a couple of people and they had an attorney and you know that threw a monkey wrench into things and all we were doing…. there again, trying to, trying to get the facts, so we said, okay, let's go at it another route, you know rather than go at this individual and make people think he's a suspect, let's just try to clear this…rather than convict this person...

Soering: Uh-huh.

Reid: Uh, get a warrant, let's try to eliminate this person. So we went about it in the reverse way which we've been trying to do lately as far as you know elimination situation ahh and finally, you know once that was all done, the individual cooperated with us you know, the same thing that we're asking you for. I haven't talked to that individual in ah four or five months, you know. Because our minds were satisfied.

Soering: Right.

Gardner: Are you worried, excuse me, are you through? Are you worried and concerned that because you are not a citizen of the United States, that we maybe some, somewhat prejudice towards you. Are you concerned with that?

Soering  I wouldn't, well I mean it's been my experience with Americans that they usually are, I don't think that is the case with you. Because I have no reason to believe that. Um. I, I do think that the people who I am really more concerned about which is I.N.S. may later feel that way. See what I'm saying?

Reid: Yeah, I, I, I think I understand what you're saying.

Soering: Right now, I, 1 don't think that y'all think you know I, I, did it, just because I'm a foreigner okay, um, unfortunately diplomatic immunity is something that you know that is long past, unfortunately, I guess.. Um. But I do think that the people who will be dealing with my file later on...because first of all that's their job and then because how they do their jobs, I mean to be as suspicious as they possibly can be.

Reid: But I'll be honest with you, it never crossed my mind when I heard your name you know, it lias never crossed my mind the first time that even considered as far as this case where you've been from or what you are. You put your pants on the same way I do every morning and you eat and sleep and talk and look just like I do I mean yuu know, we're all human beings and how you talk, where you're from, you know believe me or not...

Soering: Yeah.

Reid: You know, hey, you know to me we're, we're you know you're no better than I am and I'm no better than you are. That's the way I look at it. You know we’re...where you are from and what...that's makes no difference to me. It's never crossed my mind to say well just because you're from Germany, you know wait a minute...you know he's got the potential to kill somebody.

Gardner: But, what, but my fear is that that what you think is that we're trying to hang somebody here. And that...

Soering: I think you are.

Gardner: That Jens Jens being a non-United States citizen is that we ... .

Reid: I don't think so.

Soering:     I'm, I'm not worried about that, I'm really not. I think that you are worried understandably in a very big, important case that you know, it needs to be solved so I think…

Gardner: And we don't want this to happen again.

Soering: Yeah, exactly.

Gardner: And who's to say tomorrow we're not going to get a phone call or Lynchburg or Charlottesville or Albemarle County in which Charlottesville, surrounds Charlottesville that this is gonna happen again and it could be you or me or thousands of millions of other people. We don't want this to happen again.

Reid :    Another thing, Jens, ah, this case has gone on for, for six months or more, if we were really concerned about just solving the case and satisfying the public over in Boonsboro or the family or whatever, ah we've run across a couple people that probably we could have went ahead and got warrants for and said okay finally, it's got the family, it's got the public off our backs, now they think we've, we've cleared this case. But you know, we've had that opportunity, but if it takes us another six months, another two years, you know we're gonna eliminate people as much as we can for their benefit as well as ours to get the right individual. You know, we're not out to to get just anybody...so

Soering: Uh-huh .

Gardner: We had one individual who ah came into the picture who was a convicted murderer and this guy took a polygraph.

Reid: He worked for the Haysom's. You know...and you can believe whet they said about a convicted murderer working for the Haysoms at the time they were killed and that poor guy was scared to death.

Soering: Yeah, yeah.

Gardner : But he, he made a mistake. He he admitted he made a mistake he got this guy pissed him off tremendously and he went down in Lynchburg and killed him and he pulled his time and he got out. And he's probably one of the hardest working.

Reid: You know that that man right there, we could have possibly...

Gardner: We could have hung em probably. But we, but that’s not what we want to do, the Sheriff has said time after time after time to the media, it's been in the Lynchburg paper, the Bedford paper, Roanoke paper, probably Nova Scotia papers. But we're not looking to hang somebody with this thing because when we take this thing to court, when we make an arrest on this thing, you better believe that if its tomorrow or in the next five years, whenever it is, we're gonna have every thing so tight...

Soering: Yeah.

Gardner: That we will have a case so going to be anybody, in any mind....

Soering:  I certainly hope so....

Gardner:  That and that's why we want to clear you and get you out of the picture.

Reid;     And so in other words, what we are trying to say is, we are not just out to hang anybody for this thing.

Gardner: Now, why don't you go back to Charlottesville and go get on your date, with whoever you're got a date and because it's not over, ah he and I and you,

Soering:  Uh-huh.

Gardner: Today. Because and here again I don't want to intimidate you but we need it Jens, we need it. Ah, we we need it bad.

Reid: What we're saying is, just go back and relax and think about it. We want, I know I do and I think I want you to make the decision...

Soering: Yeah.

Reid: To do it. You know I don't want to make a decision for you or try to force you into it. Go back and think about it, if you want you know to talk […] find out this information. Do that. But I want, I want it to be sincerely you that has decided to do this and not you know not just because you're afraid that we're trying to push it off on you.

Soering:     Sure, okay um. Do you mind if I borrowed a piece of paper just a second and a pen, I, I want to write some thing down.

Gardner: Will an ink pen do better?

Soering: This is fine, thank you. Okay.

Gardner: This thing over here is definitely throwing the heat.

Soering:  yeah. Go ahead. uh-huh.

Reid:     Well, you know that's about it for me, I just wanted you know it makes me feel a whole lot better if the individual who does it wants to do it on his own and really sincere from the heart and trust us. The first thing is you've got to trust us and I'm not real sure that you do, I, I know you say it, but I'm not real sure yet that you...

Soering:  Yeah, yeah, you know something natural for me.

Gardner : Sure, coming from your background which you do...

Reid:     You're in a strange place, you're with two guys that's trying to solve a murder that you've never met before....

Soering: Uh-huh .

Reid: Ah and you know we're out for blood and you know this type thing.

Soering: I don't, but that's okay.

Reid: But you have to got to first learn whether to trust us .

Gardner: We are out for blood. (laughing) A little nun, no pun intended.

Reid: Ah, but you got to first trust us. And you know you go back and think about it and you know I want you to make that decision I don't won't to have to make it for you or try to.

Soering: Uh-huh.

Gardner: Because and you understand the alternative, alternative?

Soering:  Well, I see at least two alternatives, but I...you know

Reid: Well, yeah, you can say you can tell us to go jump in the lake, forget it, that's it for me, I'm gone, I’m not going to fool with you, I’ve told you all I got you know that's fine, that's up to you or you can go back and think about it a while and say, well you know maybe the guys are sincere about what they're saying you know, they have no reason to go call the state department or I don't know how they would get a hold of you, what we're doing here today, I don't know how they are going to do it, unless you tell them.

Soering: Uh-huh.

Reid: Because we sure aren't, we have no reason to, once we can eliminate you, as far as I'm concerned I don't want to bother you anymore, you've got an education that you're trying to get and I know that you've got good intentions.

Gardner : And we've got other people to talk to and you are not, I want you to understand, you are not the only person that we are talking to... by any means...

Soering:  I certainly hope not. Yeah.

Gardner:  Ah its other people its several other people that we're investigating, looking at, we're going to go through the same thing we’re going through with you, we've gone through, all ready gone through six or seven, I think. You know people elimination, friends, family, um connections to the Haysoms and its just something that we have to do and if it takes this time next year to solve this tiling it'll be next year at this time.

Soering: Well, let me ask you a question. How does this thing work, the giving of blood and the footprints? Where do I do that? Do I have to come back down here ?

Reid: No, you see if you want, you know the lady you talked to ... Morris?

Soering: Yeah.

Reid: You can, as far as that goes, I you can do the same thing Elizabeth did. You know rather than come back down here you can go over there and she will take care of it, it takes what two minutes to go over to a doctor and let him draw a little blood out and turn it over to her and that's for the chain of evidence type thing, there again, you know so it'll stay within us.

Soering: Yeah.

Reid: Okay. And ah that might take what, five minutes to do that and then there at the U.V.A.P.D. [University of Virginia Police Department] where Morris is, she's got a little latex paint okay...

Soering: Uh-huh, yeah.

Reid: The reason they use latex is because it is easy to get off, washes off with water. She'll roll a couple rolls of paper down, maybe ten foot, eight foot long an she will ink your feet the whole time, ah Elizabeth might have told you.

Soering:  Yeah, I saw, I saw the ink on her feet.

Gardner: Same thing she went through.

Reid: Walk down there, come back, pour a puddle of that paint out, step in that, walk through tile same thing and it's over and done.

Gardner:  And then get your fingerprints.

Reid: Yeah.

Gardner: And the the whole process will take.

Reid: Maybe an hour at the most, now that's what I'm saying waiting for the doctor or whatever you know you might get to him like...

Gardner : And it don't cost you anything, we'll pay for the blood, ah pay for the drawing of the blood.

Reid: But still, my personal opinion, I want you to think about making that decision, I don't want to feel like that I'm forcing you into doing it.

Soering: Yeah.

Reid: I'm gonna to feel a whole lot better...

Soering: Sure.

Reid:  In my own mind.

Gardner: Well, we've held you up and we appreciate you coming down we truly do. Ad ah.

Reid: Most definitely.

Gardner: And if you could let us know something you know by midweek, ah ...

Soering: Okay, yeah .

Gardner: We'd appreciate it, ah we're are not going, we're not going to hound you, we're not going to stay on you, but it will come a time when we decide, the two of us […] well, what we're assigned to do is work on this murder case and there will come a time when we'll going to have to say well today's the day, either Jens is going to do it or he isn't...

Soering: Right.

Gardner: And you know it comes a time and then we're gonna have to adventure different avenues.

Soering: Uh-huh. And a question about the tapes, what happens to those?

Gardner: These right here?

Soering: Yeah.

Reid: They're typed up by the secretary and....

Gardner: And put right over there in that box.

Reid: They are right here, well, right here locked up in my drawer.

Gardner: Oh yeah, okay, yeah.

Soering: Okay .

Reid: Every tape that we got from anybody is right here locked up in my drawer. You know people don't come in off the street ah you know  (inaudible.)