October 6, 1985: The Interview that Drove Jens Söring to Flee the USA (Part 1)
The police were polite but persistent. Their questions terrified Söring.
Welcome to a new installment of Söring Original Sources, or “Mordakte Söring”, as I call it in German. In these posts, I give you nearly-complete transcripts of important documents in the Söring case so you can your form own impression based on generous excerpts, not the cherry-picked tidbits which Söring and his supporters generally provide. This installment is the transcript of the interview which Ricky Gardner and Chuck Reid conducted with Jens Söring on October 6, 1985.
Background
Söring and Elizabeth Haysom lived in fear during the summer of 1985. They knew the police were steadily eliminating other suspects. They also knew that when Elizabeth was questioned in April of 1985, shortly after the murders, she had been unable to explain the 429-mile discrepancy in the rental car’s odometer — i.e., the fact that the car she and Söring had rented on the weekend of March 31, 1985 had been driven about 429 more miles than it would have taken to drive from Charlottesville to Washington, D.C. This distance was nearly identical to the distance between Washington, D.C. and the murder house. She had claimed that the pair had gotten badly lost, driving all over the place in long detours, and had also taken long road-trips to see historical sites. The police seemed skeptical.
Throughout the summer of 1985, both Söring and Haysom expected to be arrested at any moment. They couldn’t understand the delay. They were also intensely curious as to what the police were thinking. For their part, the Bedford County Sheriff’s Office had requested an interview with Soring repeatedly, but he kept putting them off. Söring’s finally complied with the police request for an interview on October 6, 1985. His goal was two-fold. First, he wanted to provide at least the appearance of cooperation. Second, he wanted to find out where the police were in their investigation, and whether they were focusing on him and Elizabeth as possible suspects. As for Bedford County, they wanted to gather some information about Söring and his relationship to Haysom and her family, quiz him on what he might know about the crime, get his explanation for the 429 extra miles, and convince him to submit fingerprints, footprints, and a blood sample for comparison to crime-scene evidence.
The interview is long and rambling, some 18,000 words total. It was transcribed in full and the transcript was entered into the trial record on June 5, 1990. As you’ll see, Söring’s tactic seems to have been to give long, rambling answers with plenty of unnecessary detail. He doesn’t give a straight answer to the most sensitive questions. At no point do the detectives accuse Söring of committing the crime. Söring was not under arrest and was free to leave at any time, so there was no need to give him Miranda warnings.
Aftermath
This interview filled Jens Söring with terror. As you will see, the answers he gave were confused and vague, and the detectives seemed unconvinced. At one point which you will read in Part 2 of the interview, the police drop clear hints that if Söring does not willingly provide his fingerprints, footprints, and blood sample, they have “probable cause” to go to a judge and get a warrant which will force him to do this. This is something Söring could not let happen, since he knew he had left his blood at the crime scene and suspected he might have left fingerprints and socked-foot impressions.
Söring’s initial response, as later recounted by Elizabeth, was to form a plan to murder Ricky Gardner. Söring had found out where Gardner lived and even drove by his house to case it. He described the front of Gardner’s house to her, and when she later conveyed this description to Gardner, he realized it was accurate. Elizabeth was so terrified Söring might follow through on this plan that she faked a medical crisis — a brain tumor — to distract Söring. In general, Elizabeth said later, Söring’s behavior had changed after he murdered the Haysoms. He had become more controlling and irrational, and his musings about violence as a solution to life’s problems became more concrete. The walls were closing in on them, and Söring increasingly felt that he had little to lose.
In any event, Söring decided on another plan: he would flee the country. He drained his bank accounts, wiped all the fingerprints from his apartment and car, and boarded a flight to Europe on October 13, 1985. This, he would later find out, was a mistake — one of many he would make in his dealings with the police. Even after the October 6 interview, the police still did not name him as a suspect or apply for an arrest warrant for him or anyone else. They had found his responses odd, and his unwillingness to give evidence suspicious, but still did not consider that enough to take concrete steps. It’s very likely that he and Elizabeth would eventually have been arrested, but that step wasn’t imminent.
Of course, as soon as he and Elizabeth Haysom fled the USA, they became prime suspects.
A Note on the Text
This post is taken directly from the official trial transcript, which is a public document. Since it is a verbatim transcription of a conversation, there are misspellings, repeated words, half-sentences, etc. Pauses which appear in the original are given as normal ellipses: “…” . There are a few passages which are unreadable, and there are other places where I have redacted names or personal information not relevant to the case. I have indicated all of these omissions with “[…]”.
Interview with Jens Söring, October 6, 1985, Part I
Reid: [Explaining why they’re tape-recording the interview] We are going to have to get it down and this is a whole lot easier than us sitting here trying to write word for word. We would be here all night.
Soering: Sure! Sure!
Gardner: It would take us too, take us. It would just take too long.
Soering: I understand.
Gardner: Let's see now. Your, your first name is Jens right?
Soering: Uh, huh right. Do you want to see my passport?
Gardner: Yes, if you don't mind. And you know that because I've seen about five different ways to spell it. I know you spell your with a, with a
Soering: That's me in all my glorious beauty!
Gardner: JENS all right. Soring SORING.
Soering: (Inaudible) In America it's spelled S O E that's not the way I spell it on computers O.K. So, if y'all want to find me at the university, someplace else it's O E, because (inaudible).
Gardner: O.K. so it's Jens Jens.
Soering: Uh, huh! Jens (YENTZ) is the way its pronounced.
Gardner: It sounds like with a T on the end there.
Soering: That's because it's a Scandinavian name.
Gardner: Okay, and all right you've been, you've been over here for how long now?
Soering: Seven years.
Gardner: Seven years.
Soering: Six years in Atlanta. And umm, well I guess one year in Virginia. Is the way you put that . My father has spent five years in Atlanta and two years in Detroit. But I lived my senior year in high school. We stayed in Atlanta, my mother and I stayed in Atlanta so I could finish high school there. And surprised, 1 got a scholarship too, (inaudible).
Gardner: That's the Jefferson. That's very much of an honor to get that isn't it?
Soering: Yeah, I’m really pleased with that.
Gardner: I understand.
Soering: Real lucky.
Reid: What are you majoring in?
Soering: I 'm majoring in Chinese and Commerce. Chinese language. This is something I just started this year. Something that Elizabeth and I cooked up over the summer. You know with China opening up and so forth, you know it's really the right combination to have. Looking for jobs later on. Also I was really kinda bored with what I did last year. So it was something new and something interesting. I'm enjoying it a lot.
Gardner: So if you would just go ahead and tell us how long you've known Elizabeth and how many times...or you met.
Soering O.K. Elizabeth and I met, in fact, I met almost everybody on the first evening of I guess that must have been Sunday evening. The first evening of that the university began in a meeting um...at the bottom of Webb Lounge. O. K. that's what It's called Webb Dorm. And I met her through her friend Christine […]. She's her girlfriend. The one that she's living with this year. And, since I knew Christine and I liked Christine and I tried to go out with Christine but didn't make it. I saw Elizabeth for about all of the first semester. 1 guess somewhere around December 10, 11 or 12 we started going out together for about 8 week then the semester broke up and we both went on vacations I went to Detroit and she went here and then to Yugoslavia for a trip. And, then we picked back up the second semester and we've been going out ever since.
Gardner: O.K. when was the first time you met her parents, Derek and Nancy?
Soering: O.K. I met her mother and her brother […] once. This was the first week of school. Her mother kept coming up to bring her blankets and cookies and things and Julian came along once. And Elizabeth thought it might be nice if I met both parents. And then I met them again the second semester somewhere in the first four months. I don't really remember when. I think it must have been somewhere around March. March, yeah. I met them, Mr. Haysom, Mrs. Haysom and I and Elizabeth went to lunch.
Gardner: March of 85.
Soering: I think so, yeah, they, they, I don't know if they came up more than that. At that time you know Elizabeth and I were going out and it wasn't you know really close. We weren't living together like we were living together this summer.
Gardner: Let's break it down to a little bit more specific. You say March of 85, you and Elizabeth and her parents had lunch or something?
Soering: Yeah, that was it.
Gardner: All right now let's go back before then, cause you're saying the opening day of school. This would be 84 sometime I presume?
Soering: Right, Sept, of 8...maybe it was no it must have been the last week of August or the first week of September. ** semester I met her mother and her brother Julian.
Gardner: Okay, did you meet Derek then? Her father.
Soering: No he didn't come down.
Gardner: So when was the first time you met him?
Soering: I met him only once and that was in March.
Gardner: And where did you have lunch?
Soering: Mackadoos on the corner.
Gardner: Now how many times have you been to Loose Chippings?
Soering: Once.
Gardner: Once.
Soering: Yeah. Well we went to Lynchburg once. O.K. and to drive to the Blue Ridge O.K. so we went down the Blue Ridge. And then I actually visited and stayed a day and night at Loose chippings while her parents were gone. Her parents were gone on some business trip or something.
Gardner: Now, when was this?
Soering: February sometime.
Gardner: Of 85?
Soering: Yeah, right, cause I didn't know her in 84.
Gardner: O.K. I'm just you know trying to learn. So in February of 85 you spent the weekend at Loose Chippings?
Soering: One night.
Gardner: One night. With just you and Elizabeth. The Haysoms were gone. Do you remember where they were gone?
Soering: See Elizabeth and I you know, we just we went out and I did not know very much about her parents at all. I knew that they were supposedly wealthy.
Gardner: That's because she told you that?
Soering: No Christine brought it up to me in a conversation sometime. And then I asked her about it and she said yes, but this was in a conversation because you know Elizabeth has, you know the thing with submersion and that she, you know, that she is nobility and all that stuff. That's how that conversation came about. Well, okay as I understand it again I don't know the whole story at all, O.K. Because we didn't talk about it a lot. But O.K. Her family is pretty high up in English social ranks, okay. Like her great, her godmother and her who is also her great aunt, is Nancy Astor, okay. And her father god I think he's a Earl of Summerton, okay. And that's, we had a conversation about that you know. Where'd she come from, you knew, who are your parents. How come they are here and you know what do they do. And she told me that her family had farms in South Africa. That her father was in the steel business in Canada for a while and that now he was in retirement in Virginia because that was where her mother was from.
Gardner: O.K. that pretty well sums it up then doesn't it.
Soering: That's pretty much what I know.
Gardner: O.K. now in March of 85 when you had lunch with them at Mackadoos. You didn't go over to the house then, […] day.
Gardner: Okay, now you probably are going to have to take my word for it but you and Elizabeth rented a car around 2:00 3:00 that Friday afternoon [March 29, 1985].
Soering: Was it really that early? Because I remember we had to really rush from Washington to get back and return the car on time.
Gardner: No, let's start no wait we're we're talking about Friday.
Soering: Right, but it effects on when you return it, okay. Like if you rent it at 2:00 on Friday you've got to return it on Sunday on 2:00 or you pay another day.
Gardner: Okay, have you got the...
Reid: 1:38
Soering: 1:38?
Reid: That's when it was rented.
Soering: My God…she must have (inaudible) Do you know when we turned it in?
Reid: Yeah.
Gardner: Your were late getting it back.
Soering: But we didn’t pay another day. I know that.
Reid: You got it in at eighteen minutes after three. (3:18 p.m.) on the 31st.
Soering: Yeah, because we really really rushed to get it back.
Gardner: So you may have had to pay a couple dollars extra or something 1 don't know that's irrelevant.
Soering: Fine.
Reid: The main thing we need to know is from the time you rented the car that Friday afternoon. Do you recall or remember where you went and what you did?
Soering: Well we took a drive on the Skyline Drive, okay, on the Blue Ridge scene.
Reid: Okay, now when you rented the car say at 1:00, 1:30, 1:38 did you y'all leave directly from Charlottesville and do you remember which direction you went in then when or whatever.
Soering: No. No. We didn't we did the drive on the Skyline thing. We did that on Friday afternoon sometime. We may have gone shopping before I, you know I just don't remember what we did. And we and then from the Skyline Drive we got back onto 29 and went to Washington and checked in on Friday night. And spent the night there Friday. Spent Saturday in Washington and spent the Saturday night there and then we left Sunday morning and we overslept because we didn't have an alarm clock with us so we checked out just before checkout time. That's why we were really you know that's why we were so rushed getting back, to get the car back.
Reid: Do you remember about what time you checked into the motel Friday afternoon? Approximately.
Soering: Not at all. It was a long time ago.
Reid: Yeah, yeah, I realize that. That's the reason we wanted to talk to you a few months ago. It would have been a whole lot easier to remember these things.
Soering : Ah, I know.
Reid: Yeah. Do you remember okay Saturday then you said you were in D.C.
Soering: Uh-huh.
Reid: What did you do? Shop, tour...
Soering: We, well the weather was not real hot at all and um I didn't know D.C. real well Elizabeth does so we did some walking up and down, what is that little placed called in Georgetown, the main road. George I guess it’s called Georgetown, a little shopping area.
Reid: Yeah, I know what it is.
Soering: We walked around in there and we did a lot of driving around Washington looking at the sites okay because it was drizzling and um it was really nasty It was cold and not nice, I think it was drizzling. So we drove around Washington and drove past the Capitol, and the Smithsonian Institute and all the memorials, went to Jefferson Memorial. And we went to movies in the evening.
Reid: Do you have any idea how she knows Washington so well?
Soering: She went up there with her parents.
Reid: Did she find her way around Washington pretty good though?
Soering: Well, yea, we had a map, we had a map so we kinda you know those Washington maps with all the little red dots where the buildings are.
Reid: So in other words you didn't get lost in Washington?
Soering: No, no, not that I remember, not real bad. We did get lost coming on the way up. When we took a 29 business route to some place, because I thought it was the main road.
Reid: But you didn’t get lost in D.C.?
Soering: I don't recall getting lost. I don't recall getting panicky because all of a sudden we were in Maryland or something.
Reid: Did you anytime that weekend, that weekend get lost anywhere besides the little bit on 29 business going up? Did everything run pretty smooth as far as finding the places?
Soering: I don't recall any major panic. We had a hotel room reserved which they were holding for us and we got the room. So it must not have been too late there. And Washington, the area we were, we were in Georgetown in the main kind of administration part. We were driving around and I don't recall any major panics.
Reid: So in other words you didn't get on the the ah Beltway and end up circling it five hundred times and you ended up in...West Virginia somewhere.
Soering: No, yeah, no we did, we did drive on the highway, on the D. C. highways. We did drive around on those.
Reid: Yeah. But what I’m saying is you didn't get lost though.
Gardner: What you consider to be lost?
Reid: Listen I’m not talking about maybe going going past the streets and oh oh I missed that street now we're going to have to find a way to get back. What I'm talking about is actually getting lost and ending up in...
Gardner: In Baltimore.
Soering: Well see we were, we were umm no, we were not in Baltimore I would remember that that would be pretty major lost. Um you see I don't think I would recall getting lost because we were there to sightsee. So if we ended up on a road I would keep on driving on it until we found out where we were going and then there would be something at the end of the road which you probably would want to go to so it's possible that we were on the Beltway and drove somewhere there. Okay. Because we were just sightseeing so you you know we kept driving on the roads we were on and eventually got back to where we wanted to go. We did drive all the way up. Do you have a map of Washington here?
Reid: Ah probably in the back.
Soering: Washington or Wisconsin Avenue or something like that. Like a really big road. Like when you go into Georgetown. okay. I've been again since with the Jefferson Scholars group okay. When you're in Georgetown, you're on a little main road in Georgetown and then there's a road to the left that goes off and it's miles and miles long. It's either Washington or Wisconsin I don’t remember but on that road is the German Embassy to the right. And we went all the way up there. It's a really long road. And then we went on highways and got back again.
Reid: Was this done mostly Saturday though, right?
Soering: Yeah, like I say the weather was not nice at all, there wasn’t much else to do. Like Georgetown it’s not like a closed mall, it's all open air. So unless you have an umbrella, you're gonna get wet.
Reid: But Friday afternoon you really didn't do that much ?
Soering: We went out.
Reid: I mean as far as riding all over, you more or less did that Saturday.
Soering: We drove somewhere on Friday evening okay. Cause we went out. You know (inaudible) at the hotel. I don't recall any major trips, but you know this is really hazy stuff.
Reid: I’m sure it is.
Soering: It was a long time ago.
Gardner: O.K. that Friday afternoon when you rented a car did y'all go straight to Washington?
Soering: No.
Gardner: Where did you go?
Soering: Skyline Drive.
Gardner: O.K. now where did you get on the Skyline Drive, do you remember?
Soering: Elizabeth was driving.
Gardner: Okay. Did you go? Have you ever been to Lexington... Virginia?
Soering: Is that like if you go down Skyline Drive that you … […]
Gardner: I don't think Lexington is actually on the Skyline Drive. You can see a map.
Soering: Well, the thing is we we we took the Skyline Drive and we decided to go on it until we hit some town. It may have been Lexington, Lexington. Then we decided to turn around and come back. That was kinda our goal, we were going to take the Skyline Drive to this town when we got there, turn around. We could just see the town in the valley. We didn't actually enter it, if I remember.
Gardner: So did, did you tell Elizabeth that you would like to go see some historical historical sites or anything like that? Like maybe Lexington. I mean, you know Lexington is pretty that's where you know ah VMI ah is, you know Virginia Military Institute. What is it, the oldest military school other than West Point in the United States or something. You know its pretty historical.
Reid: The Civil War, too.
Gardner: Yeah, the Civil War, you know it's a historical town.
Soering: I think I have been to VMI, but I'm not sure whether it was on that particular or sometime this summer. I've been . . . because when we were you know this summier we were we had to rent cars to move this stuff so we did some trips then too. I don't remember when I was there.
Gardner: okay, where is (looking at map) where is Charlottesvi1le?
Soering: Here's Charlottesville right there.
Gardner: Here's Charlottesville right here.
Soering: Uh-huh.
Gardner: All right. Now here is Bedford. All right. Now, of course it don't show on this Virginia map because it's not a map that shows the Blue Ridge Parkway or the Skyline Drive as you refer to it, but it's the Blue Ridge Parkway.
Soering: Right.
Gardner: But see, let me think here a second. Here's Lexington, okay. And here is Charlottesville.
Soering: Yeah.
Gardner: So if y'all, if y'all came down and hit the Skyline Drive somewhere around Lexington so you came South is what I'm saying.
Soering: Yeah, but, we were on the Skyline Drive going both ways.
Gardner: Okay. okay, now of course going back to the Washington see how far. See you were going away from Washington and back to ...
Soering: Right.
Gardner: To D.C.
Soering: We did, yeah.
Gardner: See I'll tell you what we're we're looking for here is you've got about you got about 400 unaccountable miles on the car that y'all rented. Okay.
Soering: It's possible.
Gardner: Yeah. I'm sure it's possible.
Reid: 429.
Gardner: Four hundred and twenty-nine miles on a rented car. When you rented the car Jens see what I'm saying is is when y'all rented that car here, and going from here to here to here you've got 429 unaccountable miles. You talked a while ago about a major lost. Being in Baltimore you would be major lost if you was in Baltimore.
Soering: Yeah, how far is Baltimore?
Gardner: It's on, right here.
Soering: Yeah.
Gardner: Baltimore is closer to Washington than Charlottesville is. But what I'm saying is
Soering: Baltimore is a big city.
Gardner: Y'all must have been pretty lost and, and, and took a whole lot of scenic tours to put 429 extra miles on the car.
Soering: Well, because I recall on Friday we decided to go, you know, we we were planning on doing this Washington trip and you know we didn't have all that much money.
Gardner: Right.
Soering: So if we get a rent a car we can enjoy it as much we can. Now I you know I came down from Detroit with my father to go to college, you know to bring me down all my stuff down and I hadn't had a chance to drive the Blue Ridge yet, okay. So um Elizabeth said, "Let's go down the Blue Ridge." And we took what she thought was a good part of the Blue Ridge, a nice part, scenic part. We drove on it, we got back to we drove down we drove back up to Charlottesville and took 29 to Washington and checked into a hotel. Then we went, then we went out for the evening...okay. I think we went to the movies or something, I don't remember. Somewhere along the weekend we saw Witness, okay. And then on Saturday. . . .
Gardner: Saw what?
Soering: The movie called Witness. okay.
Gardner: Okay.
Soering: Okay. And not the Coca-cola bottle one, Screaming Jay Hawkins did the sound track to it. It's called, it was like a really, it was like a really, it was black and white and it won awards last year. Do you have it in your notes somewhere. It's um it doesn't matter it's another movie. Anyway and then Saturday we woke up and we went to I don't know 1 guess we went to Georgetown somewhere in the middle. We drove around and then we went to Georgetown. And you know the weather was really not nice and it started to drizzle. So we got back in the car and spent the rest of Saturday afternoon driving around Washington. And then in the evening we go back to the hotel. And we go out to do something else. I forgot what we did. We went out again that evening. We drove somewhere then. You know that we did a lot of driving that weekend. You know if you don't have a car, we're not allowed cars the first year at UVA, okay. Um you try to enjoy a car when you get it. And it's really nice driving on the Skyline and […] Washington also. That was I don't think was...that couldn't have taken more than an hour or so getting off and back again. Cause we just noticed it got more and more country and we just, you know. I was driving that bit, because she drove the Skyline. I wanted to drive too.
Reid: When did she get, when did she get this, this the letter that she, the envelope that she mailed for her father in D.C.? Did they send that to her or did she pick it up or do you remember her mailing an envelope?
Soering: No.
Reid: A yellow one.
Soering: But I think I know, I think, I think she you talked to her about this, right?
Reid: Well, we've talked to three or four people about it.
Soering: Yeah. I don't remember mailing anything for anybody, cause you know it doesn't seem to make sense to mail something in Washington anyway. Especially on a Saturday, they're not going to pick it up okay. And 1 don't remember doing anything like that. Also, and you know this better than I would was she in contact with her parents before that ?
Reid: Ahh, yeah.
Soering: Her father’s birthday or something, right?
Reid: Right. Uh-huh.
Soering: You know I think maybe that's when I met her parents when they came to pick her up to take her out for her birthday, is that maybe when I met her parents? Do you know?
Reid: Now she talked to them by phone now. As far as the birthday deal.
Gardner: No she was down.
Soering: She went down by herself.
Gardner: The previous weekend.
Reid: Okay, I'm sorry.
Soering: I remember she went down for the birthday. And I think they picked her up and that's when I met her parents. Something like that.
Gardner: She was down ah the 23rd, 24th of March and then they took her back on the evening of the 24th which was Sunday evening.
Soering: Uh-huh. Something like that, I mean ah...
Reid: She also called by phone. Ah because her mother wanted her to come down and pick up this envelope.
Gardner: On Monday night?
Reid: Yeah. Ah because when y'all rented the car ah her mother made the statement and her father both was hoping that y’all would come by ah you know, when you before you went to D.C.
Soering: We didn't do that though.
Reid: Because she ah her father had something her father had something that she that he wanted Elizabeth to do for him which was to mail this letter that was to go to ah Canada.
Gardner: Well, did Elizabeth make any statement to you that her parents were expecting y’all that weekend?
Soering: No, because she was just down really it must not have been too long before.
Reid: See […] was posted […] on the 1st […] ah when was it written? Friday?
Gardner: Friday, Saturday, I think it was Friday.
Soering: Washington D.C.?
Reid: So if it was mailed, if it had been mailed on the weekend say if it had been mailed Sunday, it would have been postmarked until the next day which would have been the 1st Monday.
Soering: Well, I'll tell you what. When we drove up to Washington, okay. umm, Elizabeth told me that her parents went up there a lot okay. It seems to me that you know her mother Is in this Water Color Association or something and her dad has all these international connections. I guess it's possible that they drove up there, because we did not go down to Lynchburg on that weekend. Because she had just been to visit her parents the weekend before or something like that for the birthday, the birthday thing. There's no need to go see your parents.
Reid: Did she mention, have you ever heard Elizabeth mention any of the people that her parents knew in D.C. by any chance, possible friends that would visit or that they would entrust giving this envelope to to mail for them when they got back or anything?
Soering: I wouldn't remember cause her parents have so many connections everywhere you know. They're, they're, they're, they're so spread out all over the place. I'm sure they must know a lot of people in D.C. you know.
Reid: But you said she did go there as far as her painting. Nancy as far as her painting or water colors?
Soering: It seems like she would. I don't, I don't know okay. I know she was in a local association here in Lynchburg with the Massie's or something like that, I met the Massies. Have you talked to them?
Reid: Yeah.
Soering: Yeah. ummm, I suppose that if, if, if they have a National Association of Water Colors, it's called something like that National Association of Water Color Artists or something. I suppose they would have headquarters in Washington, I don't know. It seems like they they are very involved people you know and they have connections all over the place. It seems like Washington D.C. would be the natural place to go for a lot of things. Umm Lynchburg is a small town so it seems that they would, they're pretty cosmopolitan people at least from what Elizabeth described them to me and at the time I met them you know.
Reid: Because the problem is there that ah we know they didn't go Saturday because they were seen over there Saturday working around the yard.
Soering: Yeah.
Reid: And ah Sunday
Gardner: They didn't go to Washington.
Soering: No?
Reid: They didn't go. So.
Soering: Well, you know I, like 1 said I don't know. Friends, maybe friends came, maybe, I don't know I really don't . It seems like they have a lot of connections in Washington.
Reid: That's a very good possibility.
Gardner: Well, the point we are trying to make here is is that we know for a fact okay that on Monday the 25th, March 25th, that Derek and Nancy both told people that they were expecting you and Elizabeth down that weekend, the forth coming weekend to spend a weekend that y'all went to Washington.
Soering: Umm.
Reid: Did she say why she didn't want to go down or did she say, that she didn't go that weekend?
Soering: I don't remember hearing anything about it. I don't see why they would they would want both of us to come down.
Gardner: Well they knew y'all were going to D.C. and that he had something that he wanted mailed to […] in Nova Scotia. or he wanted something important, he wanted some Elizabeth to come down because he had something very important that he wanted her to do while y'all were in Washington D.C.
Soering: I don't know anything about it.
Gardner: okay, now we've got an envelope that was mailed as Inv. Reid said....
Soering: Ah-huh.
Gardner: On April the 1st.
Soering: Right.
Gardner: Okay.
Reid: It was postmarked April the 1st.
Gardner: Postmarked April the 1st Washington D.C.? That little envelope envelope had to be mailed out of Washington D.C.
Soering: Uh-huh.
Gardner: Okay, we know the Haysom's didn't go to Washington D.C. that weekend beyond a reasonable doubt we know that. We know that without a doubt without a shadow of a doubt. All right. We got on the 25th that they were expecting you and Elizabeth to come down that week, this weekend.
Soering: Right.
Gardner: All right. You two were the only two people that we know that went to Washington D.C. that weekend.
Soering: Yeah.
Gardner: So that's why we're asking you these questions.
Soering: Well, you know, I know, I know it must be tough in your situation taken on faith I have never been at Loose Chippings while her parents were there.
Gardner: Uh-huh. okay. While we are on that subject getting you back with Derek and Nancy, if I refer to them like that you know who I am...
Soering: Sure.
Gardner: Maybe I should say Derek and […] ah whatever. But anyway.
Soering: But then, people call her Nancy...
Gardner: Have you, have you and Derek every had a conversation between just you and oh did you ever have a conversation just you and Derek?
Soering: No. We were never alone.
Gardner: Never alone?
Soering: Yeah, we, we were together for, you know, one and a half two hours at lunch, that was it.
Gardner: All right.
Soering: And in the car on the way over there.
Gardner: Do you have, or do you know a woman by the name of [..] Haysom? I mean uh […] Haysom?
Soering: Yeah. Yeah, she's really nice.
Gardner: Have you, when did you meet […]?
Soering: […], I met briefly after what happened while we were in Lynchburg okay. And then I met […] again or saw […] again for about half an hour in New York this summer. Because I was picking up Elizabeth on the way to come down to summer school.
Gardner: That's where she lives is in Warwick, New York, I believe?
Soering: Yeah, right. Which is difficult to get to.
Gardner: All right. Now did...when you had lunch with the Haysom's in Lynchburg at Mackadoos, were they was her and this, what's her husband's name? Ah […]?
Soering: Right. […] is her last name right?
Gardner: Yeah. That's right Christopher […]?
Soering: Yeah, there's a Christopher up there but I think that maybe ... see there's four people living at the farm. I don't know whether it's her husband. It's possible.
Gardner: I'm talking about that lives in Warwick, New York.
Soering: Right, right, right, there's two couples living at that place permanently. There's Chris.
Gardner: Yeah, Christopher […].
Soering: Right, well I tell you what I can check that because I have her address in my little address folder in here. Ms. […] Haysom […], right. Because she would be married. . .okay . The other one is called Simon.
Gardner: Okay. Okay. Without any further ado, let me ask you this question, did you and Derek ever have an argument?
Soering: No.
Gardner: You, you and Derek never had an argument at any time.
Soering: I've only met him for one and a half hour.
Gardner: Okay, okay. Go ahead.
Soering: Okay. Well, Mr. Haysom may have been slightly peeved off with me because he had to wait for a couple of minutes for me to change. But you know he didn't say anything about it in the car on the way over to Mackadoos okay. Elizabeth came running into the room and said let's go to lunch with my parents.
Gardner: Where were you and Elizabeth? Where were y'all staying?
Soering: This was at the dorm.
Gardner: Oh, okay.
Soering: Okay um this is when we went to lunch together. This is the only time I've ever met him, okay. So I, she came running into my room and said, "Let's go have lunch with my parents, they're here." I said, "Okay, but I've gotta change." She said, "Okay, I'll stand out there waiting." And it took me a while so she came back and said my father is you know getting peeved off why aren't we getting ready to leave. And I said "Okay, I'm done." And we ran to the car and we got in and drove. Mr. Haysom struck me as being as you know a really courteous person and he didn’t say anything about it at all.
Gardner: Right this was March of 85? You said earlier.
Soering: Whenever, whenever, that, yes it must have been March.
Gardner: All right. Now, they drove all the way to Charlottesvile and picked you and Elizabeth up?
Soering: Just her.
Gardner: Oh, okay.
Soering: I don't know if they actually took her back.
Gardner: I thought you came to Lynchburg and ate with them?
Soering: I've never been to Lynchburg.
Reid: No, Mackadoos.
Soering: Mackadoos in Charlottesville.
Reid: Oh, okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry okay.
Soering: Mackadoos is around the corner in Charlottesville.
Gardner: Okay, I see, so you went out to eat with them in Charlottesville.
Soering: Right.
Gardner: Okay, I'm sorry I misunderstood you.
Soering: That's okay, one and a half hours we went to lunch. And then he said he had something really important to talk to Elizabeth about. And I kinda got the idea this was time for me to leave because they had family stuff to discuss. So I said bye, bye and I walked home...from Mackadoos which is not too far. And whether that was the week that she went down or not I don't know. In the conversation we talked about what. We talked about his radios. Yeah, the radio convention he had coming up. He's like a radio buff or something?
Reid: Where is this supposed to be at? Do you know?
Soering: Akron, Ohio. Akron, Ohio because of the blimps. I remember that. They keep the blimps there and him and his half brother or something, do you know the one I'm talking about?
Gardner: Uh-huh.
Soering: Were supposed to go there to the radio convention.
Soering: And he told me about a new German satellite dish that he thought was just the coolest thing around. Elizabeth likes Germans and Mr. Haysom seems to like Germans […]
Gardner: Uh-huh. Um, how did he or how did they Derek and Nancy feel about your and Elizabeth's relationship?
Soering: I don't remember them saying anything to me about that.
Gardner: Did Elizabeth ever mention to you how they felt about you and her seeing each other?
Soering: I don’t recall offhand, no.
Gardner: So you don't know if you, she was seeing you with their blessings or not?
Soering: I don't even remember if they even knew that we were seeing each other as boyfriend/girlfriend?
Gardner: They knew you were going to Washington D.C. together didn't they?
Soering: I guess they did? I guess they must have.
Gardner: Okay, okay well did you know that they objected to you and her going to Washington D.C. that weekend together?
Soering: Not as far as I know.
Gardner: Elizabeth never mentioned that to you? That her parents had voiced concern over her going off with you or any other man to Washington D. C. for the weekend ?
Soering: No. That doesn't seem like that would be something the Haysom's would do either. Cause it seems to me like Elizabeth has been pretty independent for a long time now. And it seems to me that...as I understand it, that they had, they had, you know, now that she was back in America they had a pretty decent relationship okay?
Gardner: Uh-huh.
Soering: And it seems to me that they would trust her to do that.
Gardner: Let's go to Elizabeth's feelings. Ah. What, what was, or what is Elizabeth's feelings towards her parents? of course now I'm just asking you we've all ready asked her and, but is it, it was, was it one of a really close parent/daughter relationship or what?
Soering: Well, as I understood it there were some tensions and that's why she went back to Europe, you know about that right. Yeah. Well, then she came back and the longer, I mean she stayed in Lynchburg for a year, and I think during that year they really got closer together again. Because she was, you know, she'd been off for about a year or something like in Europe and I mean we've talked about her Europe experience a lot. And I think it's really changed her from what she was before. And I think that gave her a chance to get closer to her parents. I don't really know. I mean...I don't know, I wouldn't venture a guess on how, you know, how close - (inaudible), completely buddy-buddy or I, I know that she told me when we were just going this weekend for whatever that was. When was that? We were, we were thinking about getting me a new shirt or something and we were talking about what she liked doing with her mother and she always said that the only person she really enjoyed going shopping with, was her mother because her mother she'd go shopping with and she wasn't forced to buy something she would just look at stuff and she hated everything. She could she could just say oh I didn't find it and there was no, you weren't, you know you didn't have to buy something just because you went shopping you didn't have to buy something. There was no pressure from her mother.
Gardner: Has Elizabeth ever mentioned to you ah any desire to attend the Air Force Academy? In Colorado?
Soering: In Colorado?
Gardner: Isn't that where its at?
Soering: No. No, she as far as I know she wasn't interested in any of that stuff at all. Since I’ve known her.
Gardner: Uh-huh.
Soering: She used to...
Reid: But actually you haven't known her that long?
Soering: No, that's yeah just four months, you know, at that time. And I don't even know if I knew anything like that at that time. I do know that, I don't when this was, I get the impression she was a lot younger, like only sixteen, seventeen in Canada she joined up with the Canadian Air Force. She went down to the recruitment center and signed up and her father had to bail her out. But that's the only thing I know about the Air Force and Elizabeth. She has, okay, Elizabeth is a really you know she's an interesting person and she's a pretty complex person. And what she has been doing for a long time now from what I you know from what she's been telling me is that she gets interested in something throws herself into it completely and then kinda burns out on it. Burns out on it, okay. Now I had that with engineering, eighth, ninth, tenth grade, I was going to join the (inaudible) or something. I was going to build space stations. And she had something like that about engineering too and our English school system is better. And they have to do more advanced work earlier, so she decided that she couldn’t do math and she dropped engineering and got interested in writing after that. And she's been writing for a while now and her mother helped her get to that convention or something where she met her publisher. So that's been something that's going on for a really quite a good time now you know.
Reid: Let me ask you this did ah there again we’re getting back to a personal situation not only on your end of it, but I guess it could possibly be Nancy so to speak. […]
Soering: No. Dick […] was introduced to me, I think the first time I ever heard or met or did anything with Dick […] was after you know during the reception a and all that that stuff after all this happened.
Reid: Okay, was this at, whose house was this at?
Soering: Mrs. Massie's. Yeah. The reason Dick […] comes to mind is because you know I think Mrs. Massie's sees him as almost like a Guru person. Ahh and he was like a male who was closely associated with her mother through the Water Color Association.
End of Part I
October 6, 1985: The Interview that Drove Jens Söring to Flee the USA (Part 1)
Wetter an dem besagten Samstag in Washington DC laut weather.gov:
Niederschlag: 0
Temperatur: um die 60F
Jens Pinocchio Söring: „We walked around in there and we did a lot of driving around Washington looking at the sites okay because it was drizzling and urn it was really nasty It was cold and not nice, I think it was drizzling.“
Hi Andrew, OK. Second attempt, same interview
AH: This is something Söring could not let happen, since he knew he had left his blood at the crime scene and suspected he might have left fingerprints and socked-foot impressions.
Well Andrew, you missed the bloody sneaker impression. How could you. Is it too small for you? Terry told us in System Söring that they would prove that Soering stood behind Derek's chair like stated in his confession. But this is clearly wrong as they are between the chair and the table!!. I see - I would miss them too. There are too small to be made by Soering!
AH: Söring’s initial response, as later recounted by Elizabeth, was to form a plan to murder Ricky Gardner. Söring had found out where Gardner lived and even drove by his house to case it. He described the front of Gardner’s house to her, and when she later conveyed this description to Gardner, he realized it was accurate. Elizabeth was so terrified Söring might follow through on this plan that she faked a medical crisis — a brain tumor — to distract Söring.
This is so funny. You are a true Haysom believer. Is there any proof of she said he said is true. I mean the source is Elizabeth Haysom. A diagnosed pathlogical liar. She is known for her good performance in acting something out. So obviously she had convinced Gardner. No problem for her to find out his home. Background: Wow a guy who should write Beyond reason felt in love with her. And Gardner, forgot about her shoe size. and cigarette brand 😀
Now the most important part concerning the CASE - a serious point which you are ignoring, as both trials didn't give any answer to it.
Question: Who had written this letters and when did it left the Haysom's house. Try it Andrew. You pronounced yourself as the case expert!!!
First read it, it is the half part of your citated interview:
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Reid: When did she get, when did she get this, this the letter that she, the envelope that she mailed for her father in D.C.? Did they send that to her or did she pick it up or do you remember her mailing an envelope?
Soering: No.
Reid: A yellow one.
Soering: But I think I know, I think, I think she you talked to her about this, right?
Reid: Well, we've talked to three or four people about it.
Soering: Yeah. I don't remember mailing anything for anybody, cause you know it doesn't seem to make sense to mail something in Washington anyway. Especially on a Saturday, they're not going to pick it up okay. And 1 don't remember doing anything like that. Also, and you know this better than I would was she in contact with her parents before that ?
Reid: Ahh, yeah.
Soering: Her father’s birthday or something, right?
Reid: Right. Uh-huh.
Soering: You know I think maybe that's when I met her parents when they came to pick her up to take her out for her birthday, is that maybe when I met her parents? Do you know?
Reid: Now she talked to them by phone now. As far as the birthday deal.
Gardner: No she was down.
Soering: She went down by herself.
Gardner: The previous weekend.
Reid: Okay, I'm sorry.
Soering: I remember she went down for the birthday. And I think they picked her up and that's when I met her parents. Something like that.
Gardner: She was down ah the 23rd, 24th of March and then they took her back on the evening of the 24th which was Sunday evening.
Soering: Uh-huh. Something like that, I mean ah...
Reid: She also called by phone. Ah because her mother wanted her to come down and pick up this envelope.
Gardner: On Monday night?
Reid: Yeah. Ah because when y'all rented the car ah her mother made the statement and her father both was hoping that y’all would come by ah you know, when you before you went to D.C.
Soering: We didn't do that though.
Reid: Because she ah her father had something her father had something that she that he wanted Elizabeth to do for him which was to mail this letter that was to go to ah Canada.
Gardner: Well, did Elizabeth make any statement to you that her parents were expecting y’all that weekend?
Soering: No, because she was just down really it must not have been too long before.
Reid: See […] was posted […] on the 1st […] ah when was it written? Friday?
Gardner: Friday, Saturday, I think it was Friday.
Soering: Washington D.C.?
Reid: So if it was mailed, if it had been mailed on the weekend say if it had been mailed Sunday, it would have been postmarked until the next day which would have been the 1st Monday.
Soering: Well, I'll tell you what. When we drove up to Washington, okay. umm, Elizabeth told me that her parents went up there a lot okay. It seems to me that you know her mother Is in this Water Color Association or something and her dad has all these international connections. I guess it's possible that they drove up there, because we did not go down to Lynchburg on that weekend. Because she had just been to visit her parents the weekend before or something like that for the birthday, the birthday thing. There's no need to go see your parents.
Reid: Did she mention, have you ever heard Elizabeth mention any of the people that her parents knew in D.C. by any chance, possible friends that would visit or that they would entrust giving this envelope to to mail for them when they got back or anything?
Soering: I wouldn't remember cause her parents have so many connections everywhere you know. They're, they're, they're, they're so spread out all over the place. I'm sure they must know a lot of people in D.C. you know.
Reid: But you said she did go there as far as her painting. Nancy as far as her painting or water colors?
Soering: It seems like she would. I don't, I don't know okay. I know she was in a local association here in Lynchburg with the Massie's or something like that, I met the Massies. Have you talked to them?
Reid: Yeah.
Soering: Yeah. ummm, I suppose that if, if, if they have a National Association of Water Colors, it's called something like that National Association of Water Color Artists or something. I suppose they would have headquarters in Washington, I don't know. It seems like they they are very involved people you know and they have connections all over the place. It seems like Washington D.C. would be the natural place to go for a lot of things. Umm Lynchburg is a small town so it seems that they would, they're pretty cosmopolitan people at least from what Elizabeth described them to me and at the time I met them you know.
Reid: Because the problem is there that ah we know they didn't go Saturday because they were seen over there Saturday working around the yard.
Soering: Yeah.
Reid: And ah Sunday
Gardner: They didn't go to Washington.
Soering: No?
Reid: They didn't go. So.
Soering: Well, you know I, like 1 said I don't know. Friends, maybe friends came, maybe, I don't know I really don't . It seems like they have a lot of connections in Washington.
Reid: That's a very good possibility.
Gardner: Well, the point we are trying to make here is is that we know for a fact okay that on Monday the 25th, March 25th, that Derek and Nancy both told people that they were expecting you and Elizabeth down that weekend, the forth coming weekend to spend a weekend that y'all went to Washington.
Soering: Umm.
Reid: Did she say why she didn't want to go down or did she say, that she didn't go that weekend?
Soering: I don't remember hearing anything about it. I don't see why they would they would want both of us to come down.
Gardner: okay, now we've got an envelope that was mailed as Inv. Reid said....
Soering: Ah-huh.
Gardner: On April the 1st.
Soering: Right.
Gardner: Okay.
Reid: It was postmarked April the 1st.
Gardner: Postmarked April the 1st Washington D.C.? That little envelope envelope had to be mailed out of Washington D.C.
Soering: Uh-huh.
Gardner: Okay, we know the Haysom's didn't go to Washington D.C. that weekend beyond a reasonable doubt we know that. We know that without a doubt without a shadow of a doubt. All right. We got on the 25th that they were expecting you and Elizabeth to come down that week, this weekend.
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Try to think of the Version that Soering and Haysom had left forensic evidence at the scene and also took this envelope to DC. And Soering had seen this envelope much more serious as evidence as the "elevator video" which didn't exist but Wright took very serious.
I bet Frank/Francis would also expect an opinion by an expert!
AND ALSO KEEP IN MIND:
In Haysom's testimony she said she had to flee because of avoiding to meet her halfbrother!!
So one plus one would end up in Howard Haysom would have asked Elizabeth and Soering about that letter (again?!). As Howard knew all the answers he got from her so far and describing her sister as a liar in court he wanted to clear something up! Howard and Richard had serious reasons for putting their halfsister to the scene!